290 m/s for the vagabond while kiting cerberus (for instance, but every other is also around 200) has 205, so almost 50% less ?

The Sacrilege needs more DPS output, besides the change to HML (that will solve the range problem but will agravate the DPS one) a solution would be add a 6th laucher to be on pair with the other hacs out there. On the trade off reduce the drone bandwit from the proposed 50 to 25.

Lets be honest you are proposing 6 lauchers to the cerberus that will have the the hability to kite the damage. The sacrilege will not have that hability but it will have the armor bonus , but again misses the 6th launcher.

Alright, I did some EFTwarrioring today.

The Cerberus' grid is pretty low. 2x LSE fits are pretty much mandatory on cruiser-sized shield ships. It should be possible on the main shield HAC.

The Eagles' grid is a bit low too. A rack of Railguns + LSE needs a 3% PWG implant. Of course you can downgrade the railguns but then you lose 10km range.

The shield RailDeimos is interesting. It still needs a 3% PWG implant to fit even with meta 4 LSEs. You get a 22+32km range. A slight PWG bump would help the Deimos' case and wouldn't be a powercreep.

Regarding the Ishtar...well, CPU really is an issue. PWG isn't really optimal either.

The Sacrilege is good.

The blasterDeimos is ok too. But I still think the speed gap between the Vagabond's speed and the Deimos' speed is too large. The Deimos goes at 1.8km/s, the Vagabond goes at 2.4km/s. The Deimos should go at about 2.1km/s imo.

More feedback to come when I get back home.

Indeed i think CCP need to give up the ghost on trying to not make them T2 attack cruisers .. yes you can keep the T1 attack cruisers as the faster option but you cannot handicap HACS with combat cruiser speed and lower .. not if you want people to take you seriously

OR fly them

indeed but you only have too look at the caracal vs stabber speeds to get a picture of where the cerb should be say minus 5% of caracal and thats roughly where the cerb should be at for speed and 5% heavier mass.

Just for laughs, fit up a dual nano Typhoon with 6 cruise missile launchers, and then fit up a cerb and pretend it has 6 launchers too.

Now tell me again why a faster cerb is a problem.

"If I'm supposed to be a rail gun kitting ship, why would someone fly me instead of the Eagle?" - Deimos

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=260025&find=unread

CCP intends for a Diemost to fit rails and snipe.

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Its implied since they used the brawler Diemost to compare rather than the sniper Eagle.

Eagle and Diemost both use hybrids, Talos uses hybrids, if they wanted to compare a sniper ship to a Talos they could have used the Eagle and made more sense.

Also I recall someone saying the Diemost was to be a sniper, which I found ridiculous...

Ok for all of you who didn't watch the alliance tournament, Fozzie and Rise commented on this thread and Rise said that in regard to the feedback everyone has given, he is going to look again at the hacs as he initially he is a bit conservative when making changes to ships in eve.

So my advice would start posting coherent arguments on changes you want to see. Because there will be changes.

I will like this as well, that would make game play alot more interesting.


Here are my thoughts.

Deimost : will still Never Be flown, it needs to either have a little more of everything including tank "in your face brawler" or it should be re-designed all together

Ishtar: is good as always... could use a bit more CPU after running tests in EFT

Cerberus: is better
it would be nice to see a close range brwaler missle boat for caldari
Raven is long range
Rohk is long range
drake is meduim range
Cerb is long range
Eagle is long range
naga is long range

It would be nice to have a caldari ship that got some better damage mods and was made to be an in your face brawler.


Eagle is nice for what it does


Sacrilge still wont be flown by many. The CAP Bonus should be built into the ship and you should give the ship an other missle bonus. cause there is not point buying a Sac when you could buy a drake or a cerberus.

Zealot is ok as is, maybe a few tweks could be done


Vaga is now a monster, its gunna make solo PvP very interesting

Munin though has gotten better still could take more looking at. still dont see why people would fly it over alot of the other HACs

seriously the two words brawling and vagabond together just make me sick, also it will lose speed and it have more mass than other HACs

The problem with that bonus is you could argue quite rightly that should be included in its profile much like the max velocity one was .. so a mwd sig reduction would make more sense

I don't want a linky vaga that can sig tank frigates thank you very much.

Am i the only one that thinks that its kind of strange that Caldari have both missile and hybrid HAC, Gallente have drone and hybrid HAC, but there is no drone HAC for Amarr and no missile HAC for Minmatar?

Also each race has a HAC with tanking bonus except Gallente.

Because basing all ship balance on solo pilots having links is a really good idea.

I swear to god I dont understand anybody wanting anything happen to the Vaga other than it getting its DPS and Range bumped up, it doesnt need more mids, it doesnt need a tanking bonus, it doesnt need anything other than to actually be able to apply a decent amount of DPS to range.

I still don't get this, the problem of the Vaga has never been its tank, yeah its **** poor but it wouldnt be an issue if it actually did decent DPS and applied it reasonably well. Its problems are entirely to do with the fact that its DPS and projection are awful.

Your math on the Vagabond speed is wrong. 239*1.25 rounded is 300, not 290.

Something I've been trying to point out in my last (or forelast) post regarding what these HACs should be focusing on.

Thing is we can't really have every single ship have +4 med slots.

I have no clue how CCP in general sees stuff, but I'm guessing we're sometimes to fly without a tackling module - as silly as it sounds. While a +20km warp disruptor is most of the time a must for a ship like Vagabond, I'm guessing we're to neither always see the Vaga itself as a solo-pwn boat nor as a ship that always has to tackle something.

I understand tha propulsion module + three modules won't help much either.


But as a different example. I often fly ships without the fancy cookie cutter tanks, like the common 2xLSE on Vaga.
Brawling with BufferTank is one thing, but you can also be useful by dropping the point and other tanky stuff for better DPS support. Let the Interceptors in the gang do the tackling.
Of course, if you get aggro, you will of course die fast without LSEs.

This is just to show however that you do not have to use the same old fit all the time just to suffice asking for more medslots.

But in the end, there has to be something done with the role bonus - and to figure if that new Shield-bonus is really that useful.



As somebody else and I already suggested, there should probably be a breakdown in what is "Assault" and what is "Strike", because those are seriously two different aspects. These ships are called HEAVY ASSAULT but right now, even with these changes, that name is mostly just cosmetic and to make it sound more awesome than they actually are. Don't get me wrong, you can still kick bum with them - but yeah, 64 pages here say other stuff.

It is indirectly why I also say specifically for the Vaga, make it lighter/faster, better dmg projection if necessary - therefore not so tanky and a bit fragile. That however is more of a "Strike Cruiser" mentality than a Heavy Assault one. Since it is likely too complicated for most to imagine anything around that, it is imo easier to suggest a role bonus and give to each HAC an individually awesome one.

Such as that AB bonus and all those other rare and fancy stuff, like anti-web and whatever may suit your taste or be missing on your favorite HAC.

the old vagabond is 8.75m/s faster then the new one. that is about 75m/s nerf when MWD is running and two nano fitted. why nerf the speed on a ship that is supposed to be specialized to going fast?

old buffer vaga wont benefit from the shield boost bonus anyway....

why you people ***** about this 75m/s when the problem why the ship isnt as dangerous as it used to be lies elsewhere...

the problem of the vaga is with blaster rebalance te nerf and ship reworks and taloses out there its prey went nearly extinct

to be a viable solo ship (there need to be more solo ships) it needs to be ale to kite cause in solo ships you need to be able to engage against the odds and be able to run, brawling solo will just get you webed scramed and killed.

when you want the vaga to be viable solo ship again you need to up its dmg projection at kite range and maybe up its kite range by buffing longpoits or giveing it a longpoint bonus.

Give the Jaguar a 7.5% bonus to shield boosting, then this statement will be true.

Well at least you are taking that idea and running with it.

You know what armour for space craft really is? It's three or four layers of thin material with gaps between then, the first couple absorb the directed energy, and the last two protect the hull.

I used to test it for NASA.....so yeah twice the armour for a quarter of the mass does make sense.

.....and leave sense out of my eve, we DON'T want real physics around here.

Yeah microasteriods moving 10km/s have no energy either. Like I said leave real physics out of it.

Most nano gangs are cynabals? Wait what?

Sure people use the cyna rather than the vaga atm.. But most proper nano gangs are just tier 3's because they are about six hundred times better (I did the math, don't question!)

thats why i said the ship needed to drop falloff for a excessive tracking bonus (maybe to arty excluesive so it does not get abused).



btw a MJD on anything than a BS would comepletely ruin their purpose on BS

so HELL NO MJD on anything than bs PLZ!

almost all changes looks pretty good imo,

but still there 4 things to do:

ishtar - buff cpu
Zealot - give it 25m3 dronebay
Vaga - need a nerf ( lol out of cap boosters lemme just gtfo) and another bonus (dual damage bonus perhaps to compete with cynabal which is going to be buffed later anyway)
All HAC - speed rised to their t1 equivalent except the vaga (speed is ok) and Deimos (huge speed buff is needed)

People say that the sacrelige is bad for some reason. With how it currently stands, it will be one of the best close range E-war brawlers. HAMs will not be able to reach very far, but with it's massive capacitor and bonus to recharge rate, and pilot with decent skills will be able to run E-war mods indefinitely.

• 5 Launchers, and 5 medium drones will be able to do decent damage, especially with a dual bonus to missile damage.
• 4% armor resist per level on the amarr cruiser means an instant 20% bonus to resistances, making it harder to kill than other HACs.
• 4 mid slots on an armor ship means a MWD and 3 other modules, which combined with the capacitor recharge time will mean they can be running longer than other ships.
• It uses missile, which means that it won't be using capacitor for any lasers.

So stop your complaining, without actually playing around with it yet it looks like it's a solid ship.

It's almost a mistake to have this many ships as hac's. we have tanking hac's, there called heavy interdictors.

We have 4 sets of categories.

Heavy interdictors, recon, logistics, hac's. lets remove from the Hac category the ships that overlap with the heavy interdictors. The Deimos would be removed so that if you want to fly a thorax t2 hull , fly a phobos (heavy interdictors), sacrelidge's would go and only the devoter would stay, etc.

Now you can pretty EASILY balance the t2 hac's. (as it drops from a crappy 8 down to an awesome 4.

CCP broke it by making a ton of ships that have no real identity. I'm happy there trying to fix it, but there is a ton of overlap. Now if you did two things to the HIC, one being a dps bonus, it would become an amazing dps platform (great tank, ability to bubble, sig shrinkage, awesome tank, etc.

It's what we want in a bunch of the hac's right now, and it already exists. So lets reshuffle hac's to make half of them as Tanky as the interdictors? Sounds like there doing the same thing twice.

Everybody is asking for the hac's to become 10x better than the t1's (10x the price, 10x the ship)

It ain't happening. They'd break the game

CCP doesn't want to bring back the whole Nano Speed Tanking Era again, that really did suck beyond belief.

We are all theory crafting though, apparently the CSM have been very intertwined with the new HAC changes, lets see what their collaborated minds come up with.

And I'd probably yell at the CSM first when the releases come out. I mean we did vote for them.

Amarr are armor tankers, Minmatar shield tank.